Talk:Mutation Level Scale
Restructuration (2013) I have started back the mutant classification, only using objective statements and facts. So have been stated to exist: Omega Level, Alpha Level, Beta Level, Gamma Level, Omega Level telepath, Alpha-Psi. (see that article.) I have two questions: * Are we sure that the Omega Level telepath aren't a subcategory of the Omega Level mutants. That question is caused by Rick Remender statement (here) seems to merge Omega Level mutants and telepaths. * Even if it can seems logic (to me as well), I think that if a version of a character is stated to be of a level, we don't add any alternate of him instead if that alternate also got a references, does people agree with that ? Undoniel (talk) 09:47, October 28, 2013 (UTC) Class and Levels I checked back my references, and it appears that only those terms have ever appeared (among my references): Alphas/Alpha class, Betas, Beta Level (in a more long sentence in ), Gammas, Omega-class telepaths, Omega-class mutants (and Class-Omega), Omega-level telepaths, Omega-class mutants, omega-level telekinetic. And people keep saying that there is a defined separation between class and levels (without references). Should we get those separated ? Undoniel (talk) 09:24, December 16, 2013 (UTC) References needed Still need their specific reference for being Omega or Omega telepaths: David Richards (Earth-2600), Franklin Richards (Earth-10235), Franklin Richards (Earth-81122), Gabriel Summers (Earth-8020), Jonathan Richards (Earth-967), Rachel Summers (Mother Askani) (Earth-811), Takeo Sasaki (Earth-101001), Scott Summers (Scotty) (Earth-1298) If people who possess knowledge or issues on those can add those references (or remove the characters from the categories. For the Omega telepaths, need references for the Super Hero Squad's ones, if this is not a stupid automatic copy-past of their 616 pages. Undoniel (talk) 12:45, October 28, 2013 (UTC) :Few modifications made here: :*In order to segregate the confirmed Omega Level Mutants from the fan-stated and alternates without references, I've created the Category:Possible Omega Level Mutants (Reference needed) :*Are so on that list: ::*David Richards (Earth-2600), Dream Richards (Earth-9891), & Jonathan Richards (Earth-967): added because of their parents (Franklin and Rachel) who are Omega in mainstream version ? ::*Franklin Richards (Earth-10235) & (Earth-81122): added because Franklin is an Omega in mainstream version ? ::*Takeo Sasaki (Earth-101001): added because he is a counterpart of Legion, who is an Omega in mainstream version ? ::*Scott Summers (Scotty) (Earth-1298): added because he allegedly bears a resemblance to Franklin, who is an Omega in mainstream version ? :*I removed Gabriel Summers (Earth-8020) and Rachel Summers (Mother Askani) (Earth-811) because they were seemingly added as copy-past of their past/alternate versions (Mother Askani was referenced by her past-self reference). :::Undoniel (talk) 18:11, December 11, 2013 (UTC) Old topics (2007-2011) Discussions about the references I'm sorry, but is there any truth to this page at all? Gamma, Delta, Epsilon, Zeta Mutants? I pride myself on my X-knowledge, and I've never heard any of these terms mentioned, EVER. The link at the bottom mentions "some story set in London in 2003" as a source, but I can't think of anything that even remotely qualifies. It honestly sounds made up. Can anyone cite to ANY story that references these lists? --Lightning Justice 02:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC) :No, I cannot think of the reference either. :Until we see a more specific citation, we will tag this article as controversial... :Can we please have a look into the accuracy of this? :--Jamie 03:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC) ::This is the reference from the bottom of the page. Several attempts to contact the author have been attempted by multiple people, all to no avail. There are a few individuals who have put a LOT of work into this stuff recently, and while I agree with the fact that this 'Scale' has no Marvel-supported basis, I feel we should take the feelings and hard work of these individuals into careful consideration prior to destroying all of their efforts. ::Is it controversial? Yes. Will it spark bickering and dissension? Most definitely. But is there another way this kind of information can live in harmony on our site without being correctly cited? ::All food for thought. ::--Your Friendly Neighborhood Peteparker (talk • • ) 03:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC) :::Very duly noted. :) :::Might I suggest some sort of 'editorial opinions' or 'interpretive research' category? :::Thoughts? :::--Jamie 04:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC) ::::So even though this information has no factual basis, we should keep it around because someone might feel bad if it comes down? C'mon. You all know as well as I do how the internet works -- the longer this page stays up, the more people will copy this info for their own sites and adopt this scale as the gospel truth, regardless of any distinguishing captions that might be placed on the page to remind people it's non-canon. The Marvel Wiki would be responsible for spreading mis-information, knowingly, just to spare people's feelings. If the emotional well-being of the contributors is our guiding star, why not let people post their fanfic information and made-up characters on these pages. It'll make them feel better, and we can slap a "contraversial" label on the top. ::::No, I'm sorry, but that can't be the best way to run one of the largest FACTUAL sites on the web. If there's any sort of evidence this page is true, then by all means keep it up until that evidence can be fully verified. But if you know it's a fabrication, there has to be a better reason for keeping it up other than someone saying, "I might cry if you take it down." --Lightning Justice 13:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC) :::::While I wholeheartedly agree that non-factual and fabricated material has NO place on this database, this particular material has been debated several times, over and over, on many pages. (Jean Grey's and Magneto's pages come to mind) :::::Seriously, I am at my wits end with this back-and-forth. :::::The 'controversial' tag will stand. :::::If we don't find a single, solitary citation (or more) in 2 weeks time... :::::Poof! :::::--Jamie 13:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC) :::::Well, there were nicer ways of stating that opinion, but I understand your point. :::::Let me re-iterate that I completely agree with you. There is no "Official" Marvel information to back this information up, and therefore, it should not be taken as factual material. I personally don't believe that it should be associated with the character's pages whatsoever either. However, we are creative people, and there doesn't seem to be a reason to obliterate the information completely. Obviously, by your sentiment, a Controversial label would not be enough to ensure that this information is not taken as fact, so can we think of other ways to modify or label it to get our point across? If we do it the right way, this article or it's talk pages could be the pointer that directs users to the "Who should be Omegas" discussions and the like on the Forums. (Which is where I feel this information should be discussed anyway). Maybe we could move this information to the forums altogether? In any event, if we decide that leaving any kind of mutation scale off of the site, it should be included in one of the rules lists, ie Naming Conventions. Otherwise, no matter how many times we destroy the information, new users will keep bringing it back. :::::--Your Friendly Neighborhood Peteparker (talk • • ) 17:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC) :::::I think the problem here is combining the "factual" categories (Alpha, Omega) with the "fantasful" (the categories suggested from that article). People know the terms Alpha Mutant and Omega Mutant exist in the comics, if rather murkily, and so reading this page makes them think these are the official definitions. If we were to take this scale based on power/control/usefulness and call it something else (Marvel Database's Type 1 mutants, Type 2, Type 3, etc) instead of using the recognizable Greek labels, that would preserve the content while distinguishing the "official" terms as clearly being something else. :::::The Page could be set up like "Mutation Level Scale. 1) Here is a helpful scale to break down how mutant powers manifest themselves. 2) There are other forms of scaling, such as Alpha/Omega Mutants or Threat Level (from the 198 Files), which have been used in continuity. Those have not always been defined very clearly, but here is a compilation of references that have been made to them." :::::Good compromise? --Lightning Justice 18:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC) ::::::Personally, I'd like to see a WHOLE NEW area created (and categorized) to reflect original research. Peteparker is right, no matter what we do, this will keep coming back. ::::::We need to find a nice, neat home for this 'data' so those members who wish to contribute this type of material can continue to do so, without disturbing our sensibilities of accuracy... ::::::--Jamie 19:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC) Someone just added a link to a wiki that uses this scale, with no reference cited in it. Like I said, it'll spread through the internet, and no one will know where it actually came from. It's been more than two weeks now -- if there's still no way to verify this information, can it come down now? --Lightning Justice 14:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC) :Yes... yes it can. :--Jamie 15:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC) ::IMHO, if this page is deleted (and I think it should be deleted), then the Categories ("Zeta mutant" and so) should be deleted too - But not only the Categories, also the hyperlinks to them. Example: Arthur Maddicks (Earth-616) is listed as Epsilon Level Mutants, as are other 26 entries. Each of those entries should be modified to remove the deleted Category. This looks like a lot of work, but it also looks likes something a bot could do. Your thoughts? --Skippy Farlstendoiro 13:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC) :::Agreed, this discussion will ultimately reflect a database-wide policy, for all articles. :::--Jamie 15:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC) I think we should just stay with the old system. If we can't think of anything else, why not just use what was there until we can find a better system. Tun7890 01:17, December 3, 2009 (UTC) :The problem with the old system is that there are are few actual sources for the levels. Because of this, we're considering removing them altogether. :--GrnMarvl14 02:16, December 3, 2009 (UTC) "no...more...mutant levels" alright, i realize I might get a lot of heat for this, but I just did what was common policy all over the site for the past few months. I've gone through all the mutants that had a level attached to them and removed the ones that had no reference. Get this: There are two (that's TWO) confirmed references left, Legion and X-Man. There are three or four more that are still awaiting confirmation, all of them omegas. All the rest are gone. No more alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon or "delta-epsilon" (?) left, since not a single one of them had an official and/or reliable reference. I truly hope no one feels I went behind their backs, but the discussion here had been dead for more than two years and from what I can tell, I just executed common consensus. And yes, I was getting sick of the same edit battles going on as we had for strenth levels. I know this will probably cause some edit wars, but from what I can tell, there was only a single user left who still fought for the levels. If you think I did wrong, go ahead and tell me. If you have a source for the levels, I will be all too happy to re-enter them. Those who think I just did what was long overdue, you're welcome to call me the scarlet witch of mutant-leveldom henceforth. ;)--edkaufman 01:33, March 19, 2010 (UTC) :I applaud your work. Thank you for taking the bold step of fixing things. Everyone will keep an eye on them and insist that we have comic references. You rock! :Artful Dodger 13:24, March 19, 2010 (UTC) I agree... While there does need to be a standardized system for cataloging mutant power levels (and I'll use the same reference as most everyone knows), Jean Grey, Apocalypse, Magneto, Xavier, X-Man all being 'Alpha' level mutants, there never has seemed to be mention of any other Greek designation for other power levels in the rest of the mutant population so why should this place be any different? Until Marvel gives us a factual rating system, people shouldn't jump in (especially on a site this widespread and used) and create one that will eventually just confuse everyone. Maybe we'll get lucky and Marvel will see this and take note, filling in the void and setting a standard that is not only practical but reliable. New Info Um this is my first post on any wiki so sorry if i mess up but this sounds from the other posts like new info, in Uncanny X-men #525 (came out Wednesday June 9th i think?) professor X about 75% of the book in talks to Cyclops and it goes like this: Cyclops "Charles... I need you to work with David." Prof. X "David Haller?" Cyclops "Yeah. Legion." Prof. X "I'm saying this so it is said Scott--He's an Omega-Level mutant Schizophrenic that has time and time again tried to hurt us" Wouldn't that make this stuff official? (Chrisschlegel 07:04, June 11, 2010 (UTC)) :No problem, you're not messing up. Welcome to the site! Legion has beeen confirmed as an Omega-Level a long time ago, as well as three others, which you can find here. The thing was that some fans started making up categories in order to label every mutant there was, leading to absurd debates of "my favorite mutant is stronger than your favorite mutant". That's why we removed them. But of course, if someone is officially described with a level, we add it, as is already the case with Legion.--edkaufman 09:07, June 11, 2010 (UTC) references Hey, I just came across this page (and the debate), but i have some references from memory if anyone wants to look into it if it helps (for at least the alpha and beta's). In the age of Apocalypse where Jean Grey and wolverine are attacking Apocalypse ocean fortification (forgot what it was called)Havoc is warped in an refers to wolverine and Jean Grey as being Alpha level mutants. In the mini series where cyclops and Jean Grey go to the future to raise cable there is an issue where strife kills his tutor claiming that he was only a beta mutant. again these are from memory but i am fairly certain that they are accurate.Either way this is a great site guys, good work :)--rissen :It's funny you say this, 'cause I just re-read those last week and found the same reference. It was in . When I saw it, I meant to comment on their pages as well as here, but could not remember the link to this debate. It seems Marvel writers are noticing the need for "references" as well and have begun to note certain characters in several recent comics as to their mutation levels. The overall debate is still ongoing, but I am beginning to see a need for allowing the levels on the character pages... ONLY if they are referenced. --M1shawhan 21:44, September 16, 2010 (UTC) In Sentinel Vol 1 11, when the sentinel detected a mutant it started to search for the classification of that mutant when it found it it called it Classification Beta, this mutant was Agent Brian Reinhart.--Madnessreaver 20:48, December 6, 2011 (UTC) Phoenix... This my first post here and I just recently stumbled into this page. The talk I mean. Anyways... Isnt Jean Grey considered as an Omega Level mutant? Back at the X-Men Forever mini series there was a mention of her and Iceman to be Omega levels. And Isnt Mr. M of the 198 suppose to be on the list as well? Correct me If Im wrong but I think there was a mention of him to be an Omega level in the mini series 198. And not to mention Franklin Richards too.. Thanks in advance. And yeah! Im really happy that the other so called power levels are already scratched out here. It causes confusions to those people who're new the X-men. Omega telepaths In O.N.E Data mutants files, Quentin Quire is described as a "omega level telepath", and during Utopia events, Emma Frost talk about herself and Xavier being omega level telepath. Maybe, if we keep the omega level classification, we should make a category "omega level telepath" other Omega mutants Again, in O.N.E Data files, and during 198 events, Franklin Richards and Mr M are believed to be powerful Omega Level Mutants (more than other Omegas), with reality manipulations power. Should we put them so in "Omega level" category ? Stryfe? While I know he's already counted amongst the Omega level telekinetics, but in Uncanny X-Force 17 (The newest volume, whichever that is) He commands Hope to duplicate his "Limitless power" and describes himself simply as an "Omega-Level Mutant" with no specific signifier of which ability, so do we count him? --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 11:44, March 1, 2014 (UTC) :It is/was already on his page, but I rewrote my own edits, who weren't really accurate. Undoniel (talk) 11:56, March 1, 2014 (UTC)